Phra Khru Baitika Dr. Barton Yanathiro (Phra Bart)

Background

Phra Bart or Khru Baitika Dr. Barton YanathiroPhra Khru Baitika Dr. Barton Yanathiro has been a Buddhist since 1961 and a monk at Wat Luang Phor Sodh since March 2002. He serves as Secretary for International Affairs and Vice-Principal of the Buddhist Meditation Institute, where he teaches meditation in English to a constant flow of international meditators. Results have been astounding. Roughly half transcend to Dhammakaya (Noble Disciple) level and a quarter can visit Nirvana temporarily.

Phra Bart has also lectured and taught meditation at the World Buddhist University and at Chulalongkorn University’s Sasin Graduate School of Business. In lay life, he was initially a professor of Sociology and Social Psychology at Utah State University and then spent many years as an international Development Specialist, working in over 24 countries, mostly in Africa. He first came to Thailand in 1961 and worked as a survey researcher for the Research Office of the United States Information Service in Bangkok. There, he worked with Sermchai Polpatanaridthi who is now Dr. Phra Rajyanvisith, Abbot of Wat Luang Phor Sodh.

What ever possessed you to become a Buddhist monk?

I have received several questions that I have hesitated to answer because I am so new at the monk business. Now, I will begin to answer them, checking my answers with more experienced monks to make sure I don't say anything wild. Please accept what I say as my personal thoughts, rather than as official Buddhism. Regarding the above question, my life has been characterized by three quests: (1) scientific research, (2) aiding the poor of the world, and (3) becoming a Buddhist monk.

1. Scientific Research

Phra Bart or Khru Baitika Dr. Barton Yanathiro

As a graduate student, I used to characterize myself as "an anti-intellectual intellectual." Like all of us, I was searching for the truth. (Oh, do not ask what is it, let us go and make our visit.) At MIT, we dealt with data and logic, but at Harvard we stacked photocopies and applied the formula "paraphrase two, quote one". At Cornell, I reached my niche, with Social Psychology and Southeast Asian Studies. One fundamental fact has to be ignored by all Western academicians -- extrasensory perception. J.B. Rhine is laughed out of academic circles. To accept ESP would require a scientific revolution that even Thomas Kuhn couldn't envisage -- undermining Western models from Newton on. It is safer to ignore the facts. Academia has two strengths that have also become limitations: (1) objectivity and (2) scientific skepticism. Both promote "lowest common denominator" research that can be seen by all, like running rats through mazes instead of investigating the marvels of the human mind.

I have experienced ESP as direct primary data and know it to be true. Buddhism begins by noting that there are six sense organs, where the mind is number six. Bringing a thought into consciousness from memory is just like seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting or touching. From there on, our quest becomes to raise our consciousness to experience the full potential of the mind and to see the truth for ourselves. ESP is ridiculed as "subjective." Buddhism notes that subjective experience is primary. This is where we find happiness or sadness. Our efforts should focus on ourselves as observers -- to become more objective and more aware. With these thoughts, I put my academic quest for the truth on hold and set off on my second mission.

2. Aiding the Poor of the World

I have always had a global perspective -- Americans don't know what poverty is -- they think it means driving their car to the unemployment office. Besides, I enjoyed learning new cultures and languages. I focused on Africa, but also worked throughout Asia. I especially enjoyed working with villagers. I have a deep respect for their integrity and local knowledge. By asking what their problems were and listening to them, we were able to make significant short-term progress. As my career progressed, I focused on "planning, monitoring and evaluation" which were needed everywhere. I found myself dealing at higher government and international levels, which were less personally rewarding.

The problem with our village development efforts was that five years later there would be very little left. There simply wasn't the government infrastructure or village-level self-confidence to keep things going. Buddhism taught me a new perspective. It focuses on personal development rather than economic development. "Things" are as much a burden as a benefit. First we struggle to obtain them, and then we struggle continuously to maintain them. Real treasures are internal. Buddhism also taught me alternative targeting. Instead of aiming at the most needy, it seeks those who are most likely to benefit. In Buddha's words, those who have only a little dust on their eyes.

3. Becoming a Buddhist Monk

Phra Bart or Khru Baitika Dr. Barton YanathiroI first lived in Thailand from 1961-63, arriving from India, where I had studied elections for a dissertation in Political Science at MIT. (Findings were straightforward, but not publishable — Congress Party won by paying twice the going rate per vote.) My planned 3-day weekend became 2.5 years. I conducted surveys for the Research Office at the U.S. Information Service, where my colleague was Sermchai Polpatnaridthi, who is now the abbot of this temple and is the reason why I became a Buddhist monk. After USIS, I spent three months translating for a Swedish anthropologist studying the hill tribes. In return, I read the books and articles on Thailand he had photocopied, and prepared a new dissertation outline.

In 1972-73, Trina and I spent 1.5 years in Chiang Mai (Northern Thailand), collecting data for my dissertation in Social Psychology at Cornell. Sermchai was running the USIS research office, but putting most of his effort into teaching meditation. He told me this history. At the University of Michigan, a colleague had introduced him to meditation. On his first try, he saw his wife, in Thailand, ironing and one of his daughters sitting nearby. Upon his return to Thailand, he and his daughters started serious meditation study. The daughters got it right away (young minds are flexible). He stuck to it, and eventually became extremely proficient. He established the Dhammakaya Buddhist Meditation Institute as follows. He went to a printing press to print flyers asking if anyone had land to donate for such an institute. The printer said that he had some land, but could only afford to donate half of it. Sermchai asked for one year in which to raise the money to buy the other half. He did, and that is where this temple is located today.

Sermchai showed us an ugly black clay Buddha statue in his house and told us that it was gold underneath the clay. This is the traditional way to protect valuable Buddha statues. He had been led to find it, and had been told that he would eventually obtain two others. Now, all three are on display at the temple -- gold, silver and bronze. Someone else told me that, in an earlier lifetime, Sermchai was the artisan in Burma who created these statues.

On my next brief visit to Thailand, I learned that Sermchai had retired from USIS and become a monk. I looked him up at Wat Saket in Bangkok, and he told me simply "Bring your bag and be here at 6:00 AM tomorrow." At 6:00 AM, I found three chartered buses full of devotees, ready to accompany him to his native village. We spent the night there, then stopped at various temples, where he donated thousands to each building fund. He had obviously become one of the most popular meditation teachers in Thailand. He had regular radio and TV programs. Sermchai's Buddhist name was initially Phra Maha Sermchai Jayamanggalo. Later, the King awarded him the title of (sort of like being knighted) and his title/name became Phra Bhavana Visutthikhun (from Dec 5, 2004, Phra Rajyanvisith). We lovingly refer to him as "Luang Pa" -- "Holy Father" (using the Chinese word to make it identifiably different).

Wat Luang Phor Sodh continues the work of Phra Mongkol-Thepmuni (Sodh Candasaro), who was Abbot of Wat Bak Nam during his lifetime (1884-1959). In 1917, he discovered the "Dhammakaya" meditation technique, which we use. There are three other temples in Thailand run by abbots trained in our wat. We have no connection with Wat Phra Dhammakaya, founded by another disciple of Luang Phor Sodh, which has been in the news for mishandling donations. Our temple trains about 10,000 people per year -- mostly students and teachers in 3-day weekend retreats. There are currently 100 monks and 40 novices resident at the wat. The temple produces regular radio and TV broadcasts. We usually have about 800-1,000 people attending each of the two annual 14-day retreats. In addition, Luang Pa has organized "Mobile Meditation Units" (based on our "mobile development units" at USIS) that go around to other temples and teach the monks how to meditate.

In sum, I am a Buddhist monk because of Luang Pa (Phra Rajyanvisith / Phra Maha Sermchai Jayamanggalo). It is a very personal relationship; I wouldn't do it for anyone else. I feel extremely fortunate to know him, to learn from him, and to witness his remarkable feats, which highlight the immensity of the human potential.

Kuti Mansion

Well, I have now been a monk for a whole week, so if there are any secrets of the universe that you need unraveled, please don’t hesitate to ask.

As a typical ugly American, my first challenge was to convert my tiny monk’s cottage (kuti) into an eight-room mansion. I was aided by the fact that the bathroom is already divided into three rooms – toilet, lavatory and shower/laundry room. As usual, I began by looking in the trash. I found a huge iron frame for a desk.

It took a week of painting and adding a tabletop, but now I have a study, complete with internet connection. Meanwhile, I built a bedroom by hiding my bed behind two bookcases. The “kitchen” is a small table where I keep the thermo pot and coffee -- more about that later. Lets see, that makes six rooms. The living room and dining room are only separated by whether you sit in the butterfly chair (living room) or on the straw mat on the floor (dining room). I even obtained one of those beautiful triangular pillows, which are famous Thai exports. I could cheat and count nine rooms – if someone lays down on the straw mat, it becomes the guest room.

The “kitchen” is interesting, because, as a monk, you are not allowed to keep food overnight. I didn’t know the procedure, so did not initially buy a thermo pot for coffee. After a few days, I learned that everyone else has one. I called my Thai family, in Bangkok, and mentioned that the main thing I missed was coffee. I guess I sounded rather frantic, because four hours later their ambulance arrived with sirens blaring. Their care package included all the ingredients for coffee, plus cakes, laundry equipment, and, the best “homey” touch -- a mat for wiping your feet as you leave the bathroom. As monks, we are allowed to keep water on hand, including boiling water. The coffee, etc., however, must be put outside of the kuti each night. Each morning, you must find a layman to offer it to you anew. Since I get up at 4:00 AM, I have developed the habit of starting each day by drinking hot water. Only after breakfast, around 8:00 AM can I find someone to offer me the coffee.

My attachment to my kuti resulted in my first spiritual lesson. Just as I installed my newly built computer desk and had everything the way I wanted it, a van pulled up and began unloading a traditional desk and a huge over-stuffed desk chair – a “gift” from the temple, selected by those who felt they knew better than I did how I should live. I refused the gift, but this encounter left me so upset that my meditations were set back several days. I guess I am just not yet ready to completely give up ego.

Getting Dressed to go Out

I have now been a Buddhist monk for about a month, and I am getting settled in. But, I thought you would enjoy some more stories about that desperate first week.

Phra Bart or Khru Baitika Dr. Barton YanathiroOf course, you all know what a Scotsman wears under his kilt. No? Well, whatever it is, we don’t wear it. Probably the most difficult thing about being a new monk is that you don’t even know how to dress yourself. There are four main parts to a monk’s robe – jiworn, sankati, angsa and sabong. The jiworn is the main robe. Mine (extra large) is about 8 feet by 12 feet. The sangkati is an extra robe (for winter), worn in formal dress, folded over the shoulder. The ansa is a shirt with one shoulder bare (added since Buddha’s time). And, finally, the sabong is easily translated as “sarong”. My guide refers to it as “your underwear”.

OK, POP QUIZ: What is the most important part of a monk’s robe? YES, you’re right – the BELT. This is the golden cord that holds everything up. No, not the beautiful yellow sash that you see in all the pictures. That was originally designed as a “chest cloth”, to hide whether the person is a man or a woman. [In Buddha’s time, men and women were equal as monks. Over time, the “laying on of hands” died out for women. Thai nuns (dressed in white), currently, take only about 10 precepts, as opposed to 227 for monks. There are now active movements in other countries to bring back full ordination for women.] Now, the sash is purely decorative, sort of like a monk’s necktie. You never see the belt, but it is the vital element holding everything together. In fact, monks tie their door key onto the end of the belt. Thus, you never leave home without it.

There are three ways to dress: “Hom Dong” (formal dress for going to the temple), “Hom Chiang” (informal dress for meals), and “Hom Klum” (with BOTH shoulder’s covered – for going outside the temple).

I have gotten pretty good at “Hom Dong”. Here is how it is done. First, get a hammer, two large nails, and a piece of wire. Hammer the nails into the wall about 8 ft. off the ground and 15 inches apart. Then attach them with the wire. Now get a large clamp for holding papers together. Search your robe for the telltale “label” that shows where your neck should end up, and clamp the appropriate corner of the robe to the wire. Then, you “pap” the robe – folding the top back and forth until it is all neatly pleated, one hand’s width wide. Clamp the top, and repeat with the bottom edge. Then, go through the center part at two different levels, adjusting the pleats. Put on your sabong (sarong) and angsa (shirt). Now you are ready for the magic. Hold your pleated robe very tightly in the left hand, about one-third down from the top, and carefully pull out 3-4 pleats from the bottom. Now, quickly swing the whole thing around your back and up under your right arm, catching it in front. Hold your left arm straight up and pull the right edge tight up over your left shoulder. Then, carefully place the remaining pleats neatly on your left shoulder. That’s the whole trick. Now, simply add sangati (folded, over the pleats) and sash, and you are ready to go. It really isn’t so hard, once you have learned it, and it comes out looking quite spiffy.

I tried dressing “Hom Chiang” for lunch, once. You clamp down the top of the robe with your left arm pit, and then hold the rest together with your left hand. This was great for my dieting, since I am left handed.

My big adventures have been in “Hom Klum” – going outside the temple. I don’t pretend to know how to dress this way. I always have at least two monks come to dress me. (One to hold the robe and the other to twirl me around.) They come equipped with safety pins, rubber bands and (reportedly) staples. My first trip was shopping in our little town, Damnoen Saduak. The most important thing is to NEVER touch any woman. This looked pretty impossible in the tightly packed bus, but Thai culture is designed to accommodate, and there were seats in the cab, next to the driver. My second trip out was for the alms round. You leave the temple at 6:00 am, barefoot with begging bowl. My two monks were coming at 5:30 to dress me. So, you know what happened at 5:15 am. Yup, MY BELT BROKE. Luckily, they found a replacement.

Our temple has a kitchen to provide food, but every day four groups of monks walk different alms rounds. It is one of the monk’s duties to provide lay people with the opportunity to make contributions. Charity is as important a virtue in Buddhism as in Christianity. Egotism is seen as the essential root of our distorted view of reality which leads to inappropriate behavior. Encouraging generosity is one way of overcoming it. It works. Culturally, American tourists are usually impressed by the thoughtfulness of Thais. As opposed to “Dutch Treat” (here called “American Share”), the Thai ideal is to be the “fastest (wallet) draw in the East” in order to treat the others.

Irreverent Pali

I am sure that the Latin scholars among you still tingle with the exhilaration of your initial foray into memorizing a dead language (amo, amas, amat…). It could have been Pali that taught Latin how to be so difficult (nominative, genitive, dative, accusative, ablative, locative, vocative, instrumental, etc.). I am still working on the book we have to memorize before class starts. However, I have found a way to make it fun. I am devising my own lessons. Here is Lesson One (not yet checked by my professor). All you need to know by way of background is that, in Buddhism, we always repeat everything three times to prove that we are serious.

Ahang bhante, gabbhang mandanassa upagantung yacami.?Duthiyampi, ahang bhante, gabbhang mandanassa upagantung yacami.?Tatiyampi, ahang bhante, gabbhang mandanassa sapadi upadhavanang bhavitabbang.??[Reverend sir][to the room][of the toilet][to go][I request].?[For the second time][reverend sir][to the room][of the toilet][to go][I request].

[For the third time][reverend sir][to the room][of the toilet][immediately][to run][it must be].

The word “Pali” originally meant “scriptures”. The language that Buddha spoke was actually Maghadhi, a dialect of Sanskrit. Some well-meaning translator thought that “Pali” referred to the language. Ever since then, the language of Buddhism has been known as Pali.

It is really impressive, when you think of it, that Buddha’s words have been memorized and passed down over the generations, through chanting, so that 2500 years later we can still study his sermons, including his first sermon after enlightenment, in which he presented the Four Noble Truths. The Pali Canon (Buddhist Bible) is about 40 volumes, and you would be surprised at how much of it our monks can chant from memory. Learning another language is a small price to pay for such extraordinary results

A Leg Up

I first noted that my left ankle was swollen at the end of April. I initially thought it was from sitting cross-legged on the floor, so I sat on a chair throughout the Meditation Retreat (May 1-14). After the retreat, I noticed that it was not the ankle, but fluid settling there from higher in the calf area. On May 16th I made my first visit to Bangkok General Hospital. During this and the second visit, the doctor thought it was from an insect bite and prescribed antibiotics, which didn't help. So, I decided to wait until there was some visible change. The change came June 7-9, with high fever and exhaustion. On June 10th, the left lower left leg swelled up like a rough, red balloon. It was so swollen that I couldn’t stand up. This time I had to be pushed into the hospital in a wheel chair and was immediately admitted.

The diagnosis was cellulitis, which is treated with intravenous penicillin. I told them I was allergic, but the treatment went on. Thus, I spent two weeks in Bangkok General Hospital -- one week on penicillin and one week on absolutely no medicine except skin creams to cure the allergic reaction. The color of my leg came back to normal, but the swelling wouldn't subside.

I knew I wasn't cured, so I went to Siriraj Hospital where I was immediately admitted with "partially treated cellulitis." Siriraj is a Government University Hospital. They are very thorough and do great work -- training doctors and nurses and taking care of the poor for free. As opposed to the luxury of Bangkok General, I was in a public ward, but it was 1/10th the price, and ultra-excellent treatment. I proved to be allergic to both penicillin and the usual alternative, but they finally completed treatment of the cellulitis with some third "mycin". Meanwhile, an ultra-sound examination showed that I had a thrombosis (blood clot) at the top of the leg which was causing the swelling. The cellulitis was a later complication.

Thrombosis is highly related with cancer, so the next ultrasound exam covered the whole lower abdomen, to check for any other irregularities. None were found. Thus, the thrombosis seems to stem from my prostate surgery in December 2001. After two weeks, the doctors released me to outpatient treatment. I followed a daily regimen of cumadine (to inhibit clotting), with monthly checkups at my local hospital. The doctor told me to expect the blood clot to cure itself over about six months. The cumadine is only to prevent another blood clot. Seven months later (February 2003), another ultrasound exam showed that the thrombosis is gone. The leg is normal size each morning, but swells slightly during the day if I am on my feet for more than six hours. I now wear a German support-stocking throughout the day. (Ich habe mein strumpf gefunden.) The doctors still warn me against sitting cross-legged on the floor.

That was the medical history. Buddhism interprets such events as resultant karma. A lay meditator, who is a well-known adept, saw a goat tied underneath my chair, when she was meditating. She said that, in a former lifetime, I owned goats and this goat was bothering the others, so I tied his front leg to his back leg to hobble him. So, now he is hobbling me. The prescription is for me to share my merit with him and with all animals in general.

Karma -- You CAN take it with you!

What is the Law of Karma?

I will answer on two levels -- Karma 101 and Advanced Karmic Analysis.

1. Karma 101

Karma (or Kamma in Pali) means "action." The Law of Karma was part of Hinduism long before Buddhism was established. Most simply, it is "Do good; receive good. Do evil; receive evil." This is the Buddhist equivalent of As ye sew, so shall ye reap." Both are somewhat similar to the universal Golden Rule "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."

The Law of Karma is a natural law, equivalent to Newton's "For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction." It does not involve any "Judgment Day" or external moral code. Resultant karma is determined immediately and automatically with each act. There is no forgiving or evading the consequences. We are each completely responsible for our own actions. Rewards or punishments may be long in coming, but they are unavoidable.

We act on three levels: mental, verbal and physical. Buddhists cultivate mindfulness to inhibit improper behavior before it becomes overt. Ultimately, we aim to burnish the mind spotless, so that improper thoughts never arise. Intentions determine karmic consequences. Intentions are wholesome, neutral, or unwholesome -- reflecting effects on the actor, rather than external moral codes. The intention determines resultant karma, regardless of external effects. Well-intentioned actions (e.g. helping others) produce happiness. Unintentional acts (e.g. bumping into someone) are neutral. Deliberately destructive behavior (e.g. initiating computer viruses) yields unhappiness.

Both the intention and karmic result (happiness-unhappiness) are psychological. They could be cause and effect internally. However, the Law of Karma takes a broader and longer-term view, reflecting "fate" across multiple lifetimes. We each carry our resultant karma (from past actions) with us. This karma affects the opportunities and obstacles that we encounter and generally call "luck." According to the Law of Karma, there is no "chance", only the effects of our own actions.

Furthermore, we carry our karma from one lifetime to the next. Both Buddhism and Hinduism recognize the "Wheel of Life" in which birth and death are the same door seen from opposite sides. We may go to heaven or hell, but we may also be reborn on earth. In contrast to worldly goods, we CAN take karma with us. In fact, we MUST take it with us. This birth karma reflects the "unfinished business" that defines, for each of us, our spiritual mission in life.

2. Advanced Karmic Analysis

[Based on Lama Anagarika Govinda (1961). The Psychological

Attitude of Early Buddhist Philosophy, London: Rider, pp. 53 ff.]

We each create our own individual universe. Our ideas, desires, words and actions are continually creating and modifying our own little world. For example, some people are deathly afraid of snakes or rats, while others study them for a living. We divide our world into self (me and mine) and other. The concept of an unchangeable self or permanent ego in contrast to the rest of the world is the essence of "self delusion". It produces a mental outlook which values everything according to egocentric desire. With this mindset, we can never view anything objectively, including ourselves. We divide "other" into things we like and things we don't like. Then, we struggle to obtain and keep what we like and avoid what we don't like. These self-centered intentions underlie the actions, which condition karmic reactions.

We use our senses as instruments of craving. If our desire is satisfied, it results in clinging to the object. If not satisfied, it results in longing for the object and hatred for the obstacle. Our attachment to this pattern of life leads us to reproduce it repeatedly. This is the Law of Karma. Our own will, our wishes, create the world we live in and the corresponding psycho-physical organism (our "self"). Our passion determines not just birth, but continuous development toward the lifestyle we seek, based on our own limited understanding. "Self delusion" is the key factor establishing life as we know it. (See "Dependent Origination", a separate discussion topic.) Change is the heart of life, but holding still is the essence of clinging.

Regarding objects as possessions or sources of pleasure inevitably leads to frustration. If we weren't stuck on them, we wouldn't feel the least bit troubled when objects change or disappear. Deeper insight, however, can raise consciousness above this whole mindset and break the chain of conditions it creates. Thus, karma is not unavoidably determined by causes in the distant past. Only in this way is liberation conceivable. How could karmic effects heaped up since the beginning of time ever end? The idea that the consequences of all deeds, whether mental or corporal, must be tasted to the very last morsel is, assuredly, the most frightful specter that the human intellect has ever conjured up. Such mechanical laws are not applicable to living, growing organisms. For the realms of psychology and biology, laws of cause and effect must specify the conditions under which they apply. This is the "Middle Way", avoiding mechanical determinism, which would negate free will, and blind chance, which would deny human development.

Meditation Mill

This place is NOT your idyllic, isolated monastery for relaxed contemplation of the mysteries of life. It is a "Meditation Mill." Formally, we are the "Dhammakaya Buddhist Meditation Institute." The temple, "Wat Luang Phor Sodh Dhammakayaram" was established years later, on the campus of the meditation institute. Last year, we trained over 10,000 people. This year, I expect over 20,000. We recurrently juggle three simultaneous workshops.

Today is typical: Some 250 monks from throughout Southern Thailand completed a 5-day training course for teachers of Buddha's Biography. Simultaneously, 250 teenage students completed a 3-day meditation retreat. Since this is Sunday, we also had over 200 laity practicing meditation -- some bused from Bangkok and branch temples in Angthong Province. We also had our daily Rainy Season classes on Dhamma and Pali, preparing for the national exams. For these classes (which last 3 months), our own 171 monks and novices are joined by about 150 from other temples.

More important than quantity is quality. The wat made national headlines, last year, by sending five monks for the highest national Pali Language Exam (Level 9) and having all five -- 100% -- pass. The temple is now recognized for both its expertise and training facilities. The Ministry of Education's Department of Religious Affairs appears to have adopted us as their training center for Southern Thailand, and the Rajburi Province Sangha has designated us as their provincial training center. Luang Pa impressed the Prime Minister's Office by rescuing the Buddhist Association of Thailand's two-week course for Teachers of Vipassana (Insight) Meditation. When the sponsors appeared lost, he pulled out a couple of books he had written on the subject and lectured from them daily -- demonstrating an erudition far beyond anything published. The 17 CDs of his lectures are now an invaluable training resource.

I, personally, was most impressed by Luang Pa's education of a single American visitor, Loren Reid Johnson. Loren had practiced yoga, but had never studied either Buddhism or meditation. During only two weeks of study here, he was able to see and experience for himself Heaven, Hell, Nirvana, the Law of Karma, and the Four Noble Truths. Loren also began to perceive his own past lives and future. His experience confirmed the assumptions which brought me here.

(1) We CAN see and experience for ourselves the true nature of the universe -- including heaven and hell -- a radical expansion of consciousness.

(2) Loren's lack of previous indoctrination confirms that this insight is reality, not imagination.

(3) Finally, Loren's success confirms that there are some Americans who can learn this within a reasonable period of time. Channel 9 videotaped a 15-minute TV interview with Loren, and I conducted a 30-minute follow-up.